Stalkers Tickle Mutalisks

[jason]

Stalkers do too little damage to units, most notably mutalisks (since stalkers are the primary ground unit that can hit air). It took 3 stalkers forever to kill one mutalisk in my last game. Combine mutalisk speed with the little damage my units were doing, and they can fly freely around a base defended by stalkers.

Also, do photon cannons have a shorter range in SC2 than in SC1? I had placed some cannons around to prevent such an attack, but the mutalisks were able to fly out of range easily and still be able to hit most of my buildings.

[Anon]

I have to agree,toss AA is very lackluster atm.It seems that for their primary threat being mutas,the only unit they can actually beat in AA is void rays,and thats when they're harassing.
Personally,i think switch Sentries to have a +damage to whatever mutas are,at least then you got SOMETHING,and they have defensive abilities to make the heavy damage from mutas less terrifying.Sure the mutas can just run away,but you got stalkers to hold off till sentries get closer,and you can keep macro'ing while they're forced to run.

It'd take some expanding to pull off due to gas issues,but it'd encourage toss to go an air route later on since they'll have the gas to anyway.

[Baird]

Stalkers in general just feel like a very lackluster unit. Perhaps if they just did a raw 14 damage instead of 8(+6 vs armored), there are many ways to go about it, unless Blizzard is content at where stalkers stand for the time being, for whatever reason (I'm not nearly experienced enough with toss, but I hardly ever see them used against me as zerg)

As for dealing with mutalisks, a couple of phoenix's will completely shred them. And while there isn't a replay to base this off of, you probably just need to place your cannon's in better positions. As far as I know, they have the same range as they did in SC1.

[Crisischild]

Stalkers need help. It's kind of an enigma, they don't suck but they still manage to be useless.


Possible fixes.

1:Give them two attacks
2: Increase range by one or two
3: Increase damage done
4: Increase attack speed

[jason]

Stalkers in general just feel like a very lackluster unit. Perhaps if they just did a raw 14 damage instead of 8(+6 vs armored), there are many ways to go about it, unless Blizzard is content at where stalkers stand for the time being, for whatever reason (I'm not nearly experienced enough with toss, but I hardly ever see them used against me as zerg)

As for dealing with mutalisks, a couple of phoenix's will completely shred them. And while there isn't a replay to base this off of, you probably just need to place your cannon's in better positions. As far as I know, they have the same range as they did in SC1.

Yea, cannon placement may be key. I had two placed strategically near my choke and then two located behind my mineral field. What surprised me was the ones behind the mineral field failed to attack the mutas when they moved towards the front of my Nexus.

[Anon]

After using Mutas personally,i don't think AA towers really help

Canons i haven't tried,but Terran Turrets didn't even kill 1 before they went down.Mutas can be massed in a large number (or at least semi large) fairly quickly.

[jason]

After using Mutas personally,i don't think AA towers really help

Canons i haven't tried,but Terran Turrets didn't even kill 1 before they went down.Mutas can be massed in a large number (or at least semi large) fairly quickly.

That's disheartening. I always thought Turrets were the pinnacle of AA Defense.

[Alceister]

After using Mutas personally,i don't think AA towers really help

Canons i haven't tried,but Terran Turrets didn't even kill 1 before they went down.Mutas can be massed in a large number (or at least semi large) fairly quickly.

Use more gun.

Meaning spam that **@! around your base and expansions.

[Kunfo]

Use more gun.

Meaning spam that **@! around your base and expansions.

And then you can be down 2000 minerals and lose that way :)

So glad I switched to Zerg before too long

[Anon]

Use more gun.

Meaning spam that **@! around your base and expansions.

Once he sees that he'll send his mutas back

wait till hive

and take down your turrets with broodlords.He'll still have his sizable muta army and maybe some corrupters so AA units won't be of much help.

And pre-prep won't work either,because if they go ground as the other guy said...you're down a couple thousand minerals.

[Uriel]

If only Protoss had some kind of... superior... air... fighter... thing...

If only.

[Anon]

If only Protoss had some kind of... superior... air... fighter... thing...

If only.

Just to be sure,is that sarcasm?

cause Phoenix is anything but superior.

[Uriel]

Just to be sure,is that sarcasm?

cause Phoenix is anything but superior.

As has been established in the endless parade of threads #%#%*ing about mutalisks, phoenixes are awesome.

[Anon]

As has been established in the endless parade of threads #%#%*ing about mutalisks, phoenixes are awesome.



Where?where phoenixes are massed to equal numbers?

Thats sort of a problem when the phoenix requires:
more resources
more spawn points (have to build starports,en masse)
and more build time?

pre-scouting might see a mutalisk coming,but what happens if they suddenly switch to a ground offense? Graviton beam alone isn't going to change things

The problem for phoenixes isn't just that they're costly and need numbers to be successful,it's also that they make your ground SIGNIFICANTLY weaker since Mutas can hit ground and phoenixes can;t.

[Stratosspear]

If only Protoss had some kind of... superior... air... fighter... thing...

If only.

Yep, too bad that if you get enough Phoenixes to beat Mutalisks, you're screwed by a switch tech switch to Hydralisks.

[Thedestroyer]

I know Phonexis are a bit lack luster but clearly people arnt paying attention to the easyily avaible information.

Stalkers get + damage verus armor, Muta's are light not armored, thus the stalkers dont do as much damage, thus if all you have is stalkers you lose. Simple.

Phonexi's are a bit lackluster verus Terran because they get bonus damage vs light, which makes them suck vs Vikings and BC's, however Muta's are light, this makes the Phonexi's idle verus Muta's.

Also another thing to consider. Youo can have Phonexi's in the air backed up by Stalkers... (and even zealots if you fear some Hydras). I know its a novel concept, and far from accepted pratice, but you can have more than one unit type at a time.

PS this in no way means the Phonexi couldnt use some love or that the Stalker isnt a bit underwhelming.

[Anon]

I know Phonexis are a bit lack luster but clearly people arnt paying attention to the easyily avaible information.

Stalkers get + damage verus armor, Muta's are light not armored, thus the stalkers dont do as much damage, thus if all you have is stalkers you lose. Simple.

Phonexi's are a bit lackluster verus Terran because they get bonus damage vs light, which makes them suck vs Vikings and BC's, however Muta's are light, this makes the Phonexi's idle verus Muta's.

Also another thing to consider. Youo can have Phonexi's in the air backed up by Stalkers... (and even zealots if you fear some Hydras). I know its a novel concept, and far from accepted pratice, but you can have more than one unit type at a time.

PS this in no way means the Phonexi couldnt use some love or that the Stalker isnt a bit underwhelming.

This imo is a very good response,yes a phoenix/sentry/stalker combo is a little more viable a solution to muta then pure Phoenix is

I just think Phoenix need a ground friendly response if they're not gonna be wtfpwn AA.maybe make Gravaton beam a normal ability instead of a channeled so they can do something while the units are out of commission (but perhaps limit the units it can lift to compensate)

This would make them a viable counter for mutas,and would help keep your ground from being vulnerable by having them pick up and destroy a few of the ground to even the numbers.

You'd probably be able to go Phoenixes to counter zerg but still need to go Robotics if it was terran or zerg ground(since their numbers wouldn't be affected as much,and Collosi is much better for ground)

[Wyrd]

I strongly believe changing stalker bonus damage to light would fix most of the toss anti air issues. You have warp rays to take care of any armored air units like carriers and BCs and they do it so much better than stalkers. If stalkers did a bonus to light, it would give them a much better chance against mutas and even banshees.

Might make them a little too good against ground light units though. Might need to have their damage adjusted a tad.

[Payback]

If only Protoss had some kind of... superior... air... fighter... thing...

If only.The problem with phoenixs is their cost and time to build. If i make enough to counter a zerg's mutalisk force, he can switch to ground a lot more quickly than I can.

[Wingless]

Stalkers do too little damage to units, most notably mutalisks (since stalkers are the primary ground unit that can hit air). It took 3 stalkers forever to kill one mutalisk in my last game. Combine mutalisk speed with the little damage my units were doing, and they can fly freely around a base defended by stalkers.

Also, do photon cannons have a shorter range in SC2 than in SC1? I had placed some cannons around to prevent such an attack, but the mutalisks were able to fly out of range easily and still be able to hit most of my buildings.


#1 Even numbers of stalkers hold mutas back fine you can even chase a bit with blink. Use phoenixs a bit to help but youll lose if the zerg out expands you. Stop letting the zerg out expand you mutas are expensive for zerg they are not massed as easily as protoss would like everyone to believe.

#2 attack the zerg if he put all that money into mutas he doesnt have a heavy ground force and hell have to bring the mutas to your army to save his base. Now your stalkers shouldnt have a problem even if you cant micro them properly (most protoss players). some cannons and maybe a handfull of stalkers can keep your probes safe long enough to get to his base. if he doesnt bring the mutas to defend boom take out an expansion or main thus reducing future mutas.

I dont even want to go toe to toe on the ground with toss when I do have a heavy ground army :( you should not have a problem countering a mass muta strat. Like the million other threads about this out there if you play your race the way its supposed to be played you can win. Stop crying for a hard counter to mutas.

[Nick]

sounds like some sick porno

[Antpile]

Stalkers do too little damage to units, most notably mutalisks (since stalkers are the primary ground unit that can hit air). It took 3 stalkers forever to kill one mutalisk in my last game. Combine mutalisk speed with the little damage my units were doing, and they can fly freely around a base defended by stalkers.

Also, do photon cannons have a shorter range in SC2 than in SC1? I had placed some cannons around to prevent such an attack, but the mutalisks were able to fly out of range easily and still be able to hit most of my buildings.

you are using the wrong counter. Stalkers do bonus damage to armored, which mutalisks are not. Mutalisks are light, so the correct counter is sentries who can both drastically lower the incoming damage from the mutalisks while dealing far more damage back than a stalker would.

Sentries do really good damage. Think of them like protoss marines that hit harder and are more than twice as tough (if they use their guardian shield).

[Gokanjin]

you are using the wrong counter. Stalkers do bonus damage to armored, which mutalisks are not. Mutalisks are light, so the correct counter is sentries who can both drastically lower the incoming damage from the mutalisks while dealing far more damage back than a stalker would.

Sentries do really good damage. Think of them like protoss marines that hit harder and are more than twice as tough (if they use their guardian shield).

Sentries don't do bonus dmg against mutas but they do have guardian shield, personally the phoenix have more hp and a bit faster than the mutalisk, and you can always go overlord hunting if you want to harass.

[Lane]

Stalkers are not meant to be Muta counters. Phoenix is.

But it's terribly slow and expensive to mass Phoenix. Something needs to be done about that.

[Rilgon]

1:Give them two attacksTerrible idea, unless it's two attacks at the current damage. Two attacks is one of the reasons why things like the Zealot v Roach matchup is so pitiful.

[Pandaofdoom]

#1 Even numbers of stalkers hold mutas back fine you can even chase a bit with blink. Use phoenixs a bit to help but youll lose if the zerg out expands you. Stop letting the zerg out expand you mutas are expensive for zerg they are not massed as easily as protoss would like everyone to believe.

#2 attack the zerg if he put all that money into mutas he doesnt have a heavy ground force and hell have to bring the mutas to your army to save his base. Now your stalkers shouldnt have a problem even if you cant micro them properly (most protoss players). some cannons and maybe a handfull of stalkers can keep your probes safe long enough to get to his base. if he doesnt bring the mutas to defend boom take out an expansion or main thus reducing future mutas.

I dont even want to go toe to toe on the ground with toss when I do have a heavy ground army :( you should not have a problem countering a mass muta strat. Like the million other threads about this out there if you play your race the way its supposed to be played you can win. Stop crying for a hard counter to mutas.




this.

muta's are GAS heavy. Push us hard when we expand and we can fall hard.

[Effka]

one thing that aggravates me is PvZ when I go stalkers and have a decent group of maybe 7-8, and the zerg sends in a group of lings he straight up dominates my stalkers. Yes, I am aware that lings counter stalkers as they did dragoons in SC1, but in SC1 I could micro my goons easy and kill groups of lings, now its like I cant do anything. I could have slayers`boxer micro on my stalkers and he still beats me. The stalkers dont do enough damage, its a terrible unit unless you have huge groups + blink researched.

[Gokanjin]

Stalkers are not meant to be Muta counters. Phoenix is.

But it's terribly slow and expensive to mass Phoenix. Something needs to be done about that.

Read my post above you, First, they're not slow, Zerg can just easier mass produce units better, second They're not really that expensive, 150/100 compared to a muta which is 100/100. Terribly expensive is not the word I would use.

[jason]

#1 Even numbers of stalkers hold mutas back fine you can even chase a bit with blink. Use phoenixs a bit to help but youll lose if the zerg out expands you. Stop letting the zerg out expand you mutas are expensive for zerg they are not massed as easily as protoss would like everyone to believe.

#2 attack the zerg if he put all that money into mutas he doesnt have a heavy ground force and hell have to bring the mutas to your army to save his base. Now your stalkers shouldnt have a problem even if you cant micro them properly (most protoss players). some cannons and maybe a handfull of stalkers can keep your probes safe long enough to get to his base. if he doesnt bring the mutas to defend boom take out an expansion or main thus reducing future mutas.

I dont even want to go toe to toe on the ground with toss when I do have a heavy ground army :( you should not have a problem countering a mass muta strat. Like the million other threads about this out there if you play your race the way its supposed to be played you can win. Stop crying for a hard counter to mutas.



Zerg expands extremely quickly. If you attempt to rush them and they have roaches (which any intelligent zerg player will have) you have the potential to lose the battle. If you lose the battle, or build up your force before attacking, they will have the mutas which will eat your sentries and zealots. Finally, the mutas can harass your probes while your main army is busy with their expansion.

I'm not saying it's impossible to win, it's just that my primary AA ground unit does laughable damage to Zerg's primary air attacker. Sure, I could get some sentries, but anybody who amasses sentries is stupid. Generally you only need one or two for an army.

[Sykomyke]

I think the main problem doesn't lie in the cost of mutalisks, or the cost of stalkers, but at the ROOT of the problem. The Queen.

Zerg players in the past would fast expand so they had another hatchery, plus it wasn't uncommon to have an extra hatchery in your main base for the needed unit production.

Now with the queen's spawn larva you find that players can amass an army easily, with just one hatchery, and by spamming the spawn larva skill. If they expand it's good game as they can generally keep spawn larva up on both (when needed) with one queen.

I think the inherent solution is to adjust the queen's energy dynamics.

Right now the queen only has to use spawn creep tumor ONCE and the player can (with a little bit of attention and good memory) get infinite creep. Not only that but the heal is lackluster so noone ever uses it. It's too high of a heal to be used on ground units effectively, and it's too low of a heal to really be useful for buildings. Essentially the queen boils down to a mobile hatchery role that can defend itself against minor attacks (1 or 2 light air units, 2-3 tier 1 ground units).

As such I think that the queen's spawn larva needs to be placed on a much higher cooldown or have a much higher energy cost. That way it's used as a support power, i.e. an emergency where you need to make some units fast, and not as a substitute for an extra hatchery.

Without spawn larva you would see players have much less viability of a larger mutalisk army simply because they would have to build multiple queens to use spawn larva on a regular basis, or they would have to build another hatchery. Both of which is SUPPOSED to be the zerg's weakness.

That is all. You may comment on my thoughts now :)

[Stratosspear]

I think the main problem doesn't lie in the cost of mutalisks, or the cost of stalkers, but at the ROOT of the problem. The Queen.

Zerg players in the past would fast expand so they had another hatchery, plus it wasn't uncommon to have an extra hatchery in your main base for the needed unit production.

Now with the queen's spawn larva you find that players can amass an army easily, with just one hatchery, and by spamming the spawn larva skill. If they expand it's good game as they can generally keep spawn larva up on both (when needed) with one queen.

I think the inherent solution is to adjust the queen's energy dynamics.

Right now the queen only has to use spawn creep tumor ONCE and the player can (with a little bit of attention and good memory) get infinite creep. Not only that but the heal is lackluster so noone ever uses it. It's too high of a heal to be used on ground units effectively, and it's too low of a heal to really be useful for buildings. Essentially the queen boils down to a mobile hatchery role that can defend itself against minor attacks (1 or 2 light air units, 2-3 tier 1 ground units).

As such I think that the queen's spawn larva needs to be placed on a much higher cooldown or have a much higher energy cost. That way it's used as a support power, i.e. an emergency where you need to make some units fast, and not as a substitute for an extra hatchery.

Without spawn larva you would see players have much less viability of a larger mutalisk army simply because they would have to build multiple queens to use spawn larva on a regular basis, or they would have to build another hatchery. Both of which is SUPPOSED to be the zerg's weakness.

That is all. You may comment on my thoughts now :)

Queen mechanic is fine. Without it Zerg couldn't keep up. The problem really does lie with the fact that Protoss doesn't have any viable light air counter from ground units.

[Messana]

Stalkers do too little damage to units, most notably mutalisks (since stalkers are the primary ground unit that can hit air). It took 3 stalkers forever to kill one mutalisk in my last game. Combine mutalisk speed with the little damage my units were doing, and they can fly freely around a base defended by stalkers.

Also, do photon cannons have a shorter range in SC2 than in SC1? I had placed some cannons around to prevent such an attack, but the mutalisks were able to fly out of range easily and still be able to hit most of my buildings.

Use. Sentries.
Seriously - there are enough posts on this.