Why do Protoss have no counter for Mutalisks?

[Zelniq]

if you're looking for useful help, ignore all the speculation or theorycrafting
i've first hand experience, the best way to counter mutalisks is:
Sentry's shield ability is a must, helps a TON. I find a unit mix of Stalkers/Sentries/Phoenix to be ideal, uprades from forge help a ton and the protoss must be very careful in choosing their army composition. the best protosses I face get a fast observer to check what the zerg is up to, and react accordingly. don't rush for archons, theyre pretty terrible vs mutalisks and rather go for a timing attack like i said with the gateway/stargate units i mentioned earlier. the problem with going mutalisks is the high cost, a well placed timing attack from the protoss when zerg is either too weak while trying to get to mutas, or has too few mutas (again use observers to tell you when to attack, and what unit comp you need), mutalisks w/o large numbers will get easily crushed by a couple phoenixes, a few sentries, several stalkers. protoss should not be getting colossuses, no way they can afford them vs muta. if you're having trouble vs MASS zerglings use Chronoboost to get a fast +1 Attack upgrade to make zealots kill zerglings in 2 hits. please for the love of god upgrade your units and focus hard on getting very good macro, and a solid unit comp.

[Kiwikaki]

i will clear this up for all the noobs. Against a top opponent you will not be able to kill mutalisk harass with sentry (which move ultra slow) or stalkers (which are pretty bad overall). If you try going archons , you still dont win unless you have 10 of them because they are a lot weaker than in bw and because of their splash being incredibly reduced. Psi storm? no way as it deals insane low amount of damage for a longer period than in bw . They manage to dodge psi in bw and u think they wont dodge it in sc2 when its slower and weaker? The only thing u can do is some phoenix along with cannon behind the mineral line , and even then phoenix is not a very strong unit and cost a lot of monies. If zerg decide to go something else than muta and u made too many phoenix u gonna lose.

[Gearvosh]

Phoenix + Stalkers

You can also throw in some Archons and Psi storm.

[Dejafu]

If you look at sentries, they're strong vs. mutas. Try using them as a counter.

[Aurum]

High Templar with psionic storm? oh wait nobody does that anymore for some reason.

And yeah, sentries rip most zerg units up.

[Luckishot]

I will admit that my first post was lacking in information. Here's my problem.

Generally, when I play against a Zerg player they will go for mass roaches, sometimes with nydus support. If I know that they're doing that, I can get a few zealots in to harass their drones early and I can build stalkers (maybe pepper in a few immortals) to deal with the roaches. Now that I've destroyed their attacking force, I bolster my army with more immortals and stalkers and a few zealots and go on the offensive.

I trek across the map. taking out a few roaches and lings in the meanwhile and get to my opponents base.
"Oh crap. He has a spire." I focus my Immortals to destroy it, but he is still able to produce 6-7 mutalisks, which is enough to own my stalkers and make my immortals retreat. He follows them, takes them out. He has to rebuild his spire, now, but I don't have enough forces to make a push. I create a stargate and as many stalkers as I can warp in for AA. Opponent enters a minute or so later with 12-15 mutalisk, destroys my stalkers and then my base.

The problem I have is I was crushing this guy, and in position to take the win until he got a few mutas. What I need is a unit that says "Sorry Zerg, you're going to have to tech more- I'm not letting you end this game with tier 2 units" like the Colossus does for Hydralisk masses.


Edit: I'd like to point out that Psi Storm is only effective against small ground units and slow air units- the mutalisk is neither.

[Firesauce]

This.


Also remember, Zerg pretty much *must* expand. Their hatchery->spawn mechanic more or less requires it, and most Zerg tend to dislike building many hatcheries that aren't resource expansions (they will build 2 or 3 in their base but not more, using the rest for actual resource expansions). Playing against Zerg, a real key to victory is controlling their ability to expand. If you surround the Zerg or otherwise prevent them from expanding, they're really not going to be building many extra hatcheries inside their main base beyond the first 2 or 3.

Then, you bring the fight to them with a High Templar or two at your back. Fighting at their base forces their Mutas into a relatively tight cluster, very vulnerable to Psi Storm.

PSi Storm and templars are easy to micro manage around if your not being lazy...

And also, if i take out 2/3rds of your workers at your base with my muta rush then your in for it already.

Choke control with multiple hatcheries and lings / banelings can hold off a decent zealot attack if your creep colonies are spaced out the right way

[Immortal]

well what do you want, a kill all button?

Something that you can grab 3 of and kill 10 Multis with?

They're called High Templar with Psi-storm ;)

[Sapph]

proper Phoenix micro will run circles around Hyrdas trying to chase, even with their increased speed upgrade.

fyi, there is no hydra speed upgrade at the moment. Just increased range.

[Mith]

They're called High Templar with Psi-storm ;)


This.


Also remember, Zerg pretty much *must* expand. Their hatchery->spawn mechanic more or less requires it, and most Zerg tend to dislike building many hatcheries that aren't resource expansions (they will build 2 or 3 in their base but not more, using the rest for actual resource expansions). Playing against Zerg, a real key to victory is controlling their ability to expand. If you surround the Zerg or otherwise prevent them from expanding, they're really not going to be building many extra hatcheries inside their main base beyond the first 2 or 3.

Then, you bring the fight to them with a High Templar or two at your back. Fighting at their base forces their Mutas into a relatively tight cluster, very vulnerable to Psi Storm.

[Metaphysic]

Mutas cost 100/100 and it takes a fair number of them to attack any type of static defense. Stick 2 cannons in your mineral line and zerg will need around 6 mutas to make it worth attacking that point.

If your opponent is building dozens of mutas, they must have a massive resource advantage over you if you aren't coming back with a mothership+carriers or something similar.

[Tiamazzo]

That's really convenient then, because Stalkers eat roaches too.

[Wingless]

I'm looking for something that will stand on equal ground with the Mutalisk in terms of cost that will prevent the game from ending in a loss once my opponent builds a spire.

Once a spire is up you need to prevent your opponent from building too many mutas. Stalkers are the best counter and highly mobile with blink but if you cant stop your opponent from building too many of them your done. Same thing with all other units.

I think some dev was quoted about SC1 he was asked how do you counter 30 battle cruisers? He said dont let your opponent build 30 battle cruisers.

[Mortis]

Hehe, I have no problem with people asking for counters, but I have a problem with people claiming there aren't any or telling someone who gave him a legitimate suggestion to 'try again'.

[Oseven]

.... lolwut? Don't blame your screwups on the race buddy. If he had tons and tons of mutalisks to kill you with then you screwed up majorly by:

- Letting him get the resources to make tons and tons of mutalisks.
- Not scouting to be aware of the fact he was making tons and tons of mutalisks and acting on that information.
- Not having your own massive army while he was off building said army of mutalisks.

You should have had stalkers up while you worked on your own air as it's vastly superior to mutas and been harassing him before he overwhelmed you.

Watch your replay, learn what you did wrong, and try again.

I think you missed the post where he said he normally has to fend off waves of roaches before hand. Battling early roaches in this stage of Beta is very costly. If anything, I would wait for the first patch to consider tossing flames around for simple counter questions.

*Edit* Whoops, I confused some of another post with this thread. Even though the OP didn't mention waves of roaches, my original comment on the tossing of flames still stands.

[Mortis]

.... lolwut? Don't blame your screwups on the race buddy. If he had tons and tons of mutalisks to kill you with then you screwed up majorly by:

- Letting him get the resources to make tons and tons of mutalisks.
- Not scouting to be aware of the fact he was making tons and tons of mutalisks and acting on that information.
- Not having your own massive army while he was off building said army of mutalisks.

You should have had stalkers up while you worked on your own air as it's vastly superior to mutas and been harassing him before he overwhelmed you.

Watch your replay, learn what you did wrong, and try again.

[Oseven]

Also, if the Zerg has no defense against the Phoenixes initially, expect lots of Hydras. They have no choice but to start making them, which is great for you because proper Phoenix micro will run circles around Hyrdas trying to chase, even with their increased speed upgrade. Better yet, the Zerg will probably turtle the Hydras at key Phoenix harass targets, which means the field is yours to expand on.

[Rhythm]

I think that is something that I have been overlooking, overlords are a weakness. good tip.

[Oseven]

Serious Tip:

Try this the next time you play as Protoss against Zerg. Tech fast to Phoenixes.

Why tech fast to Phoenixes?

Well for one, you should be able to do it before the Zerg has enough Mutalisks to combat it, if any at all. Once you have 2-4 Phoenixes, go harass the Zerg's Overlords to oblivion. Now the Zerg has to make more overlords, so switch to picking up Drones and Queens while that happens. Basically you're goal is to cripple the Zerg so bad that a couple of basic units will finish the Zerg off, if they don't quit right away.

Now of course, the current simplistic Zerg strategy is mass Roaches, and mass them fast. The mass Phoenixes strategy will lose early to this, but proper micro and defensive base constructing can turn that battle quickly. Also, if you don't make a Photon Cannon or two, a 6 pool rush will beat you as well. Defending a rush is certainly manageable when teching to Phoenixes and it will surely beat a Mutalisk strategy any day of the week. Mixing in Void Rays with the Phoenixes after making 6-8 of them is the best way to handle any ground army at that point in the game.

The point is, if Zerg ever lets you tech to Phoenixes early, you should win every time. Unless it's pro vs. pro, that of course comes down to econ and micro battles. But then again, no pro is going to let an early Phoenix tech go unchallenged.

[Luckishot]

I'm looking for something that will stand on equal ground with the Mutalisk in terms of cost that will prevent the game from ending in a loss once my opponent builds a spire.

[Rhythm]

photon cannons are not that bad either, but a cost effective counter is hard for the protoss, as everything is expensive.

[Tiamazzo]

How much do you think it cost to build a multisk? 50/50?

[Chalon]

2-3 Photon cannons in the base do work really well for scaring off the initial waves, but the problem is killing them in the open field.

Stalkers don't seem to work very well when I've tried it. 6 stalkers vs. 6 Mutalisks, the Mutas will win pretty easily. The problem is in order to focus fire you have to bunch up, which of course advantageous to the Mutalisks and their bounce attack. Unless you're amazing at the micro and can spread them out while still focusing on one Muta.

Phoenixs do seem to work pretty well in a 1:1 ratio, but they suffer from the problem that they're a pretty marginal unit other than that one purpose.

I've been thinking that a combination of Archons and High Templars would work very well, but the problem of course is that they're T3 units compared to a T2 unit. But at least in most of the games I've played where Mutas are a factor, it's after you have a couple waves of zerglings/roaches repelled. So maybe you have enough time to get them out. It's probably not really viable though.

Another thing I wonder about is if the Sentry shield would help a lot to mitigate especially the bounce attack on your Stalkers.

[Tiamazzo]

well what do you want, a kill all button?

Something that you can grab 3 of and kill 10 Multis with?

[Rhythm]

Stalkers are not good against mutalisks in larger numbers. Try again.


nothing is good against mutas in large numbers, except archons if you pressure zerg expansions and bring the mutas to you.

[Luckishot]

Just curious.

[Tiamazzo]

wut?

[Rhythm]

They do, stalkers are good against mutas if you focus fire. I hold the left alt down and always pick them one at a time. The phoenix is...ok against mutas..but its..useless otherwise.

[Tiamazzo]

That grav beam can lift high value ground targets up so other phoenixes can kill it. Like queens >.>

[Luckishot]

They do, stalkers are good against mutas if you focus fire. I hold the left alt down and always pick them one at a time.

Stalkers are not good against mutalisks in larger numbers. Try again.

[Barcibus]

I think the best answer here is psi storm and archons.
LOL. This has got to be in the top 5 most re-posted and re-argued topic on these forums.
And to answer your post, that doesn't work.

[Wyndrunner]

I think the best answer here is psi storm and archons.

[Nick]

well I dont see why large numbers of phoenix couldnt one-shot mutas right back? it would take more micro to do 2 at a time, because youd have to split the group, but faster acceleration would help if moving mutas back and forth is really a problem.

[Sykomyke]

anyone want to do a custom game where we mass mutas vs phoenix? i'm curious to see how it plays out. it's hard for me to imagine that phoenix would lose in even resources. it seems like they'd win with less.

Someone posted a replay (on youtube i think) of 100 Phoenixes versus 100 Mutalisks.

The phoenix won with ~12-15 of them left. (No upgrades on either side)

That being said I think the problem isn't that mutalisks are overpowered, but that they are thought of as an "anti-everything unit".

Void rays aren't considered this because they are slow (without upgrade) take time to ramp up damage. And can't hit and run nearly as well as mutas. (Also no splash). Other then that void rays are essentially the mutalisk counterpart. But mutas are easier to make due to 100/100 cost (versus 200/150 cost).

[Barcibus]

anyone want to do a custom game where we mass mutas vs phoenix? i'm curious to see how it plays out. it's hard for me to imagine that phoenix would lose in even resources. it seems like they'd win with less.
They do win with less (assuming zero micro on both sides), but that changes as the number on both sides go up because the mutas hit 3 units for every 1 unit hit hit by phoenixes. So when the numbers go up, at some point there'll be enough mutas to kill more than 1 phoenix really quickly (per volley).

Also, and more to the point, when micro is taken into account, the mutas aren't going to sit there duking it out with phoenixes... they'll hit and run, and in between take something else out on the ground (like workers at expansions).

[Nick]

so i guess the phoenix would just be a bit harder to micro in that case.. maybe they should just get a movement speed or acceleration increase, to solve both of those problems.

[Barcibus]

so i guess the phoenix would just be a bit harder to micro in that case.. maybe they should just get a movement speed or acceleration increase, to solve both of those problems.

Well that still wouldn't help vs the muta bounce attack at large numbers of both units.

[Bearshark]

Phoenix rock mutas 3 to 5. Cheaper army and they are devastating

[Proletaria]

Lots of bad strategies to deal with mutas in here. Post a decent replay if you want to prove anything.

Sentry mass is the only thing that works after there are more than half a dozen mutas (prior to that a few phoenix can take them down, afterward, muta splash wins the day). Trouble is, sentries are 100g themselves AND you see support stalkers, zealots, templar to finish the job/defend them from ground units (zerglings trash sentries who are unproteted).

[Nick]

seems like making sentries vs. mutalisk would make you really vulnerable to base harassment

I don't play protoss.

[Barcibus]

As you add more mutas to the mix, phoenixes do worse (due to muta bounce attack). Also the muta can be used vs anything, while the phoenix is anti air (sure there's the graviton beam, but it takes both the target and the casting phoenix out of the fight at the same time). So if the toss tries to make more phoenixes to combat mutas, the zerg can just switch to ground attack units (while the 'toss player can't switch as easily).

[Nick]

anyone want to do a custom game where we mass mutas vs phoenix? i'm curious to see how it plays out. it's hard for me to imagine that phoenix would lose in even resources. it seems like they'd win with less.

[Nick]

yea good idea just fast tech while an overlord sits in your base and watches how you have no defense and then suddenly 50 lings show up to say hello

well scouting is pretty cool sometimes

[Coldvoltage]

If you know that they are going mutalisks, take your zealots and camp them outside one of his bases. When he sends in his mutas to harass your workers, send in your zealots. More than likely you will be able to do just as much damage (if not more) to his economy. This should buy you time to counter those damn mutas.

[Nick]

why don't people dig phoenix? 20dmg vs mutas per attack? (not including armor.. not sure how much armor mut has) compared to what? 9?

[Kranden]

yea good idea just fast tech while an overlord sits in your base and watches how you have no defense and then suddenly 50 lings show up to say hello

[Nick]

Mutas cost 100/100, Phoenix cost 150/100, Mutas have 120 life, 9+2(bounce), Phoenix 180 do 5x2 +5 (bonus to light armor) to mutas. both have the same attack speed.

the math adds up that collectively for the cost of 3000/3000 you can have 30 mutas, while 3000/2000 gets you 20 phoenix. thats 3600 life, 330 dmg collectively per attack turn. for the protoss, 3600 life(2400hp, 1200shields), 300 dmg. by the numbers, it's a loss given the same cost in minerals. (assuming no micro)

Honestly, they need to give Phoenix back their discharge ability to even the odds. Either that or gives them 6x2+6 dmg, and +1 armor seeing as they are dedicated Anti-air and mutas attack everything.

the math that follows then, 3600 life 310( (330-(30/(2/3))average 1/3 of life as shields with no armor) dmg for mutas, 3600 life, 360 dmg for phoenix. not a crushing blow, but significant victory.

I don't understand your math.. the phoenix should be collectively doing 400 damage, not 300. plus, I don't think the glaive damage can really compare with the focused damage of the phoenix, because youd be taking out individual mutas faster than youd be losing individual phoenix (assuming micro and not just attack-move.)

[Blasius]

Just curious.

the counter is to scout it early. 1 stargate pumping phoenix. The rest of your gateways should be making a combination of sentry/stalker. Use guardian shield when you fight the mutas. Put 2-3 cannons around your mineral line.

[Payback]

High templars are so hit and miss...really shouldn't invest in those against mutalisks. And phoenixs are a one hit wonder...if my opponent sees me massing them then they will switch to hydras/lings/roaches on the fly.

[Sighther]

Alright I saw one person post this and it was quickly dismissed so I'm a little dismayed here. Build carriers asap - but the key here is to build a comfortable amount of photon cannons around your nexus, protecting your probes is the idea. Any rush will quickly be put down if you have these cannons up, and if you tech correctly you should be able to pump out carriers with sentries in no time, and that is with an upgrade or two. The fleet beacon upgrade and the armor upgrade at the cyber core. You need to make your second expansion just as your fleet beacon is being made, and for the love of god make sure you have vespene gas as you're making your cybercore or just before, get the 1 expo right by your base and get vespene gas going on both deposits there, make a pylon by the expo and choke out 4 or 5 photon cannons. If you build your probes correctly early game you should have a large income of minerals at hand, so all that I have said should be easily accomplished and quickly enough. So - photon cannons and carriers + sentries.

[Chalon]

I find carrier spam with a mothership fights muta masses pretty well.

That's an end game strategy, though. He can have 6-7 Mutalisks out mid game before you even probably have your first Carrier up, especially given that he probably went for Zergling/Roaches initially which really encourages you to go for immortals.

[Struan]

Yeah, yeah don't let them get mutas... but if they have mutas there should be an effective strategy to stop them from the air as Protoss. What if it is an island map? Not to mention Protoss can't really stop mass Mutas from the ground without some miraculous micro.

[Frozen]

Mutas cost 100/100, Phoenix cost 150/100, Mutas have 120 life, 9+2(bounce), Phoenix 180 do 5x2 +5 (bonus to light armor) to mutas. both have the same attack speed.

the math adds up that collectively for the cost of 3000/3000 you can have 30 mutas, while 3000/2000 gets you 20 phoenix. thats 3600 life, 330 dmg collectively per attack turn. for the protoss, 3600 life(2400hp, 1200shields), 300 dmg. by the numbers, it's a loss given the same cost in minerals. (assuming no micro)

Honestly, they need to give Phoenix back their discharge ability to even the odds. Either that or gives them 6x2+6 dmg, and +1 armor seeing as they are dedicated Anti-air and mutas attack everything.

the math that follows then, 3600 life 310( (330-(30/(2/3))average 1/3 of life as shields with no armor) dmg for mutas, 3600 life, 360 dmg for phoenix. not a crushing blow, but significant victory.

[Hoobladgn]

I find carrier spam with a mothership fights muta masses pretty well.

[Rupert]

I will admit that my first post was lacking in information. Here's my problem.

Generally, when I play against a Zerg player they will go for mass roaches, sometimes with nydus support. If I know that they're doing that, I can get a few zealots in to harass their drones early and I can build stalkers (maybe pepper in a few immortals) to deal with the roaches. Now that I've destroyed their attacking force, I bolster my army with more immortals and stalkers and a few zealots and go on the offensive.

I trek across the map. taking out a few roaches and lings in the meanwhile and get to my opponents base.
"Oh crap. He has a spire." I focus my Immortals to destroy it, but he is still able to produce 6-7 mutalisks, which is enough to own my stalkers and make my immortals retreat. He follows them, takes them out. He has to rebuild his spire, now, but I don't have enough forces to make a push. I create a stargate and as many stalkers as I can warp in for AA. Opponent enters a minute or so later with 12-15 mutalisk, destroys my stalkers and then my base.

The problem I have is I was crushing this guy, and in position to take the win until he got a few mutas. What I need is a unit that says "Sorry Zerg, you're going to have to tech more- I'm not letting you end this game with tier 2 units" like the Colossus does for Hydralisk masses.


Edit: I'd like to point out that Psi Storm is only effective against small ground units and slow air units- the mutalisk is neither.

Same thing happened to me. I ended up winning but only because I prevented him from ever getting an expansion. What he did was switch from ground combat to mutas, then ran around killing off my supply lines. My Stalkers just couldn't keep up with them because they had to deal with my units and buildings getting in their way. I had to build some Phoenixes to chase them around and eventually the tide turned in my favor.

It is ridiculous that he held me off for so long that I depleted 3 expansions to his 1.

[BeL]

Yeah, in the current state protoss vs. mutalisk is very difficult. There is no one best solution.

You have to do a combination of things, like stalkers (best), photon cannons, and maybe a few phoenix that can otherwise harass overlords as well.

Basically the general idea is to defend yourself from them while you do something else to stop production, like harass their economy or spire.

[Trecus]

Stalkers are not good against mutalisks in larger numbers. Try again.

HT work for massive numbers, Mutas go down like the flies they are.

[Barcibus]

Someone posted a replay (on youtube i think) of 100 Phoenixes versus 100 Mutalisks.

The phoenix won with ~12-15 of them left. (No upgrades on either side)

That being said I think the problem isn't that mutalisks are overpowered, but that they are thought of as an "anti-everything unit".

Void rays aren't considered this because they are slow (without upgrade) take time to ramp up damage. And can't hit and run nearly as well as mutas. (Also no splash). Other then that void rays are essentially the mutalisk counterpart. But mutas are easier to make due to 100/100 cost (versus 200/150 cost).

And since the cost of a Phoenix is higher than the cost of a Mutalisk, that video would show that at equal costs, Mutas are going to win as the numbers go up on both sides.

[Barcibus]

HT work for massive numbers, Mutas go down like the flies they are.
Only if the zerg player just lets his mutas sit there in the ouchie storm. In a real game the storms aren't even going to hurt the mutas enough to bruise.

[Messana]

Please lock this pointless thread, Thank you.

[mike]

Last time i muta rushed a toss, i guess he spotted the spire but the 6 mutas i had made got slaughtered by his 12 sentries /6 zealots invading my base.